This was a fascinating and lively discussion. It kept thinking “this is too long, I’ll just skim,” and then getting engrossed again. Thank you for your thoughtful articulations and your vulnerable admissions that were both resonant and convicting.
“I have a clear picture of myself in that moment as someone so convinced of her own righteousness that she will try to break another person’s will in order to achieve her vision.”
I have felt this adamance and—dare I say it?—hatred for individuals I disagree with that’s it’s really scared me. And maybe part of that scariness is that I wasn’t more scary? I don’t want to get used to hate, to loathing. That’s not Jesus. That’s the god of this age.
This conversation you’ve shared feels so hopeful. In the same same way that certain clear thinkers will discuss current events by drawing historical parallels, I felt like you two were discussing current events while drawing parallels to the warring going on at the soul level.
Thank you Luke. Thanks for seeing the hope here, it's real, and for hanging in there with us — I actually received a Substack warning that we'd almost reached our word count — a first!
Thanks for reading this whole thing!! And YES I agree—even last night I was surprised at how easy it was for me to slip into an assumption of my own correctness and to get annoyed in the face of disagreement. This morning my Bible reading was about the lovingkindness of the Lord and I left thinking about how this is an attribute that I want to be more fully formed in me.
I started copying and pasting quotes that were meaningful and thought provoking from this conversation, but it started getting embarrassingly long. Instead, I'll just say "thank you, friend."
"I feel the urge to dominate another human being, and that urge is the seed of every form of oppression."
Augustine called this the libido dominandi, which translates to the lust for domination. He saw this as a fundamental drive in fallen humanity and the root cause of societal problems, conflict as well as the root of empire.
And relating to America's decline, Augustine similarly wrote about Rome's decline. While he did acknowledge that Rome had it's accomplishments (roads, public works, law) he basically said that as all empires before it and all empires that will come after, Rome is based on idolatry. Every empire has a divine origin story that they tell themselves - As does the American empire in spades - and every empire is deceiving themselves about this; Empires are the city of man not the City of God.
Again, I highly recommend the course - the teacher is quite good. I found the 1200+ pages of The City of God a daunting proposition, but this class gives an approachable introduction. Augustine was writing to Christians (and Pagans) living through the decline of the Roman empire, as such it's highly relevant to our situation. (I think he'd say don't be a patriot for the city of man (because it's inevitably crumbling and based on a lie), be a patriot for The City of God - our citizenship is in the Kingdom of God)
As a pastor trying to find words to help her church who love people but hate the polarization and hate the numbness they feel because it is all so much, more of this please.
Brenda, thank you for reading — I want to third what you and Yi Ning are saying here. It's too much, and it's easy to numb out. I push against this often. Grateful for a community of folks concerned about these same things, sending solidarity — bless you and your congregation!
I agree, fundamental to being Christian is confession. As a Nation we need to learn how to confess, and wrestling w questions of our complicated past. This can be a point of improvement. For Christians especially!
However, tbh I don’t resonate with the conversation very much. I have no issues identifying as a Christian + patriot. Quite literally for the first time in our history has Protestant faith REALLY become untangled from our identity as Americans. And we’re surprised that boomers are freaking out. Is this as dramatic a shift that happened in the 60s + 70s? Idk. I’m not smart enough. But I think we should offer more grace to those of an older generation who see their world falling apart before their eyes.
As a Gen Zer, my world is not collapsing. In fact, I see a revival coming among Gen Z. I see states like Arizona and Georgia putting forth explicit faith-based laws. I see the end of Roe v Wade. I see a conservative court. Things are looking on the up and up for me.
For me, it’s all about what we see the biggest threat as. Complete cultural collapse? Then I’m not necessarily worried about being labeled a Patriot and a Christian. Christian Nationalism? Racism? Xenophobia? Diversity? Equal opportunity + outcome for all? Abortion rights? Human rights + open border? Well then I suppose I would be concerned about someone who identifies as both. I would be more concerned about making sure we confess for past sins, and identify with the suffering of blacks, women, etc in the American Past.
But again, IF cultural collapse is happening right before my eyes…these will not be my first concerns. Put out the fire first. #Respect the boomer.
Agreed that grace is an underrated and necessary response in probably every conversation right now, and I like “respect” and “boomer” being used together, rather than “okay” and “boomer” being combined as a pejorative : )
I’m curious if you have a sense of how your Gen Z peers in predominantly immigrant or PoC settings are feeling right now. I’m also curious to hear how your peers who are nonbelieving are currently engaging with Christianity. I think there are plenty of reasons to be optimistic, and also plenty of areas to interrogate—for example, I don’t see the end of Roe v. Wade as an unequivocal victory for a more “Christian” or life-affirming culture.
I agree with your sense, though, that God is doing a new thing : ) my primary interest now is the repentance that always accompanies revival.
Appreciate the thoughtful response! Looking at the article + my response again...I suppose I resonate more w the convo than I originally thought. And I also love the formatting, as someone else commented above. Very well done.
I guess my main point of departure, which wasn't clear by my "rabbit trail" of a comment, was that I don't see the masculinity movement broadly as a bad thing. And this movement I associate in part w an older generation...and many of my peers in fact as well. And I have different feelings about Christian nationalism (also def older generation thing). There's a new "Giest" to preserve the culture from collapse, and perhaps it has a certain masculine flair to it? 100% agree that the lust for domination can manifest in a myriad of ways (very Augustinian, and pointed out as such by @phil!), and thought this was articulated really well, in a personal, vulnerable way. I guess I just didn't resonate with the whole masculine movement being painted in a broad brush as clearly lust for domination. But now I'm getting into the weeds.
Tbh I just assumed there would be more points of departure considering the admission of progressive leanings at the outset. But actually an encouraging convo to witness! Among Christian "progressives" in California!
Thanks for these thoughtful comments and for reading, Christopher. It seems like every day I read a new headline about "masculine" expressions within the church, like this recent piece from BBC: https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c30q5l8d4lro
I will admit that these sorts of pieces are clickbait in a sense — I think a lot of us like to read about wild, fringey trends — but my real question and concern is what happens if and when what seemed like frindge becomes dominant, or worse, what if it already has in some places and hasn't reached me in Seattle? As the mother of a son, these topics are often on my mind.
I hear you regarding the "broad brushstrokes" that can be used to paint "new masculinity" movements. Not every voice who wants to discuss masculinity as a positive trait is an Andrew Tate or, for that matter, a Jonathan Keeperman. In the same way that not all patriotism is nationalism, not all masculinity is misogyny or abuse, and I agree that it's important to make those distinctions.
Regarding the assumptions--maybe one of my biggest sources of encouragement and delight is seeing people within the church relinquish their assumptions about one another in the name of sincere dialogue. Hope we made some headway in this direction.
As an early X'er I do mourn the much more cohesive society that we had when I was growing up. I remember Jimmy Carter as president. And the contrast between him and the current occupant... it's a yawing abyss. I remember the empathy and kindness of Mr. Rogers - attributes that are now vilified even by people claiming to be Christians.
" In fact, I see a revival coming among Gen Z. I see states like Arizona and Georgia putting forth explicit faith-based laws. I see the end of Roe v Wade. I see a conservative court. Things are looking on the up and up for me" How does a "conservative court" count as revival? How about "faith-based laws" - what about those who aren't part of our faith? Is there room for them? I wonder if perhaps you have too much conflated the American Empire with The Kingdom of God?
"For me, it’s all about what we see the biggest threat as. Complete cultural collapse?" How do you define "complete cultural collapse"? I would suggest that we're already in complete cultural collapse (see my first paragraph above) and that, in many ways it was/is inevitable as it is in any empire (see my comment about about Augustine's City of God).
Hi Phil, I think often about how Carter was a dem and an evangelical, and how quickly he was brushed aside for the more masculine Regan. A favorite thing about Carter and Fred Rogers? You better believe it's those friendly cardigans.
I agree with much of your comment! I suppose I would just respond by saying that rather than looking to conflate the two kingdoms, I desire to stem the tide of culture collapse, which you admit is happening / is already happening.
Yes, I admit there's been a cultural collapse but I wonder if we're talking about the same attributes of collapse? I don't think the answer lies in some kind of more aggressive masculine approach (or at least as far as "masculine" is defined by the right). And I wonder if, in light of Augustine, there's any way to stem an empiric/cultural collapse? Because it seems like Augustine is suggesting that City-of-Man empires and the cultures that they foster inevitably collapse which is why we need to have our hearts set in the City of God (Kingdom of God) not the City of Man.
This was a fascinating and lively discussion. It kept thinking “this is too long, I’ll just skim,” and then getting engrossed again. Thank you for your thoughtful articulations and your vulnerable admissions that were both resonant and convicting.
“I have a clear picture of myself in that moment as someone so convinced of her own righteousness that she will try to break another person’s will in order to achieve her vision.”
I have felt this adamance and—dare I say it?—hatred for individuals I disagree with that’s it’s really scared me. And maybe part of that scariness is that I wasn’t more scary? I don’t want to get used to hate, to loathing. That’s not Jesus. That’s the god of this age.
This conversation you’ve shared feels so hopeful. In the same same way that certain clear thinkers will discuss current events by drawing historical parallels, I felt like you two were discussing current events while drawing parallels to the warring going on at the soul level.
Thank you. Please keep getting burgers together.
Thank you Luke. Thanks for seeing the hope here, it's real, and for hanging in there with us — I actually received a Substack warning that we'd almost reached our word count — a first!
Thanks for reading this whole thing!! And YES I agree—even last night I was surprised at how easy it was for me to slip into an assumption of my own correctness and to get annoyed in the face of disagreement. This morning my Bible reading was about the lovingkindness of the Lord and I left thinking about how this is an attribute that I want to be more fully formed in me.
I started copying and pasting quotes that were meaningful and thought provoking from this conversation, but it started getting embarrassingly long. Instead, I'll just say "thank you, friend."
PS. I really love this format.
Thanks for reading this novella length post Nelson!
I'm going through The Great Courses course on Augustine's The City of God. So much resonates here. I highly recommend the course (https://www.thegreatcourses.com/courses/books-that-matter-the-city-of-god). This especially:
"I feel the urge to dominate another human being, and that urge is the seed of every form of oppression."
Augustine called this the libido dominandi, which translates to the lust for domination. He saw this as a fundamental drive in fallen humanity and the root cause of societal problems, conflict as well as the root of empire.
And relating to America's decline, Augustine similarly wrote about Rome's decline. While he did acknowledge that Rome had it's accomplishments (roads, public works, law) he basically said that as all empires before it and all empires that will come after, Rome is based on idolatry. Every empire has a divine origin story that they tell themselves - As does the American empire in spades - and every empire is deceiving themselves about this; Empires are the city of man not the City of God.
Again, I highly recommend the course - the teacher is quite good. I found the 1200+ pages of The City of God a daunting proposition, but this class gives an approachable introduction. Augustine was writing to Christians (and Pagans) living through the decline of the Roman empire, as such it's highly relevant to our situation. (I think he'd say don't be a patriot for the city of man (because it's inevitably crumbling and based on a lie), be a patriot for The City of God - our citizenship is in the Kingdom of God)
As a pastor trying to find words to help her church who love people but hate the polarization and hate the numbness they feel because it is all so much, more of this please.
Brenda, thank you for reading — I want to third what you and Yi Ning are saying here. It's too much, and it's easy to numb out. I push against this often. Grateful for a community of folks concerned about these same things, sending solidarity — bless you and your congregation!
I hear you re: everything being numbingly too much right now. Glad your congregation has you to tend to them. Thanks for reading 🖤
I love this form. And Yi Ning, I'd love to meet you sometime! Sounds like we share an agent, too. 😁
I agree, fundamental to being Christian is confession. As a Nation we need to learn how to confess, and wrestling w questions of our complicated past. This can be a point of improvement. For Christians especially!
However, tbh I don’t resonate with the conversation very much. I have no issues identifying as a Christian + patriot. Quite literally for the first time in our history has Protestant faith REALLY become untangled from our identity as Americans. And we’re surprised that boomers are freaking out. Is this as dramatic a shift that happened in the 60s + 70s? Idk. I’m not smart enough. But I think we should offer more grace to those of an older generation who see their world falling apart before their eyes.
As a Gen Zer, my world is not collapsing. In fact, I see a revival coming among Gen Z. I see states like Arizona and Georgia putting forth explicit faith-based laws. I see the end of Roe v Wade. I see a conservative court. Things are looking on the up and up for me.
For me, it’s all about what we see the biggest threat as. Complete cultural collapse? Then I’m not necessarily worried about being labeled a Patriot and a Christian. Christian Nationalism? Racism? Xenophobia? Diversity? Equal opportunity + outcome for all? Abortion rights? Human rights + open border? Well then I suppose I would be concerned about someone who identifies as both. I would be more concerned about making sure we confess for past sins, and identify with the suffering of blacks, women, etc in the American Past.
But again, IF cultural collapse is happening right before my eyes…these will not be my first concerns. Put out the fire first. #Respect the boomer.
Agreed that grace is an underrated and necessary response in probably every conversation right now, and I like “respect” and “boomer” being used together, rather than “okay” and “boomer” being combined as a pejorative : )
I’m curious if you have a sense of how your Gen Z peers in predominantly immigrant or PoC settings are feeling right now. I’m also curious to hear how your peers who are nonbelieving are currently engaging with Christianity. I think there are plenty of reasons to be optimistic, and also plenty of areas to interrogate—for example, I don’t see the end of Roe v. Wade as an unequivocal victory for a more “Christian” or life-affirming culture.
I agree with your sense, though, that God is doing a new thing : ) my primary interest now is the repentance that always accompanies revival.
Appreciate the thoughtful response! Looking at the article + my response again...I suppose I resonate more w the convo than I originally thought. And I also love the formatting, as someone else commented above. Very well done.
I guess my main point of departure, which wasn't clear by my "rabbit trail" of a comment, was that I don't see the masculinity movement broadly as a bad thing. And this movement I associate in part w an older generation...and many of my peers in fact as well. And I have different feelings about Christian nationalism (also def older generation thing). There's a new "Giest" to preserve the culture from collapse, and perhaps it has a certain masculine flair to it? 100% agree that the lust for domination can manifest in a myriad of ways (very Augustinian, and pointed out as such by @phil!), and thought this was articulated really well, in a personal, vulnerable way. I guess I just didn't resonate with the whole masculine movement being painted in a broad brush as clearly lust for domination. But now I'm getting into the weeds.
Tbh I just assumed there would be more points of departure considering the admission of progressive leanings at the outset. But actually an encouraging convo to witness! Among Christian "progressives" in California!
Thanks for these thoughtful comments and for reading, Christopher. It seems like every day I read a new headline about "masculine" expressions within the church, like this recent piece from BBC: https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c30q5l8d4lro
I will admit that these sorts of pieces are clickbait in a sense — I think a lot of us like to read about wild, fringey trends — but my real question and concern is what happens if and when what seemed like frindge becomes dominant, or worse, what if it already has in some places and hasn't reached me in Seattle? As the mother of a son, these topics are often on my mind.
I hear you regarding the "broad brushstrokes" that can be used to paint "new masculinity" movements. Not every voice who wants to discuss masculinity as a positive trait is an Andrew Tate or, for that matter, a Jonathan Keeperman. In the same way that not all patriotism is nationalism, not all masculinity is misogyny or abuse, and I agree that it's important to make those distinctions.
Regarding the assumptions--maybe one of my biggest sources of encouragement and delight is seeing people within the church relinquish their assumptions about one another in the name of sincere dialogue. Hope we made some headway in this direction.
As an early X'er I do mourn the much more cohesive society that we had when I was growing up. I remember Jimmy Carter as president. And the contrast between him and the current occupant... it's a yawing abyss. I remember the empathy and kindness of Mr. Rogers - attributes that are now vilified even by people claiming to be Christians.
" In fact, I see a revival coming among Gen Z. I see states like Arizona and Georgia putting forth explicit faith-based laws. I see the end of Roe v Wade. I see a conservative court. Things are looking on the up and up for me" How does a "conservative court" count as revival? How about "faith-based laws" - what about those who aren't part of our faith? Is there room for them? I wonder if perhaps you have too much conflated the American Empire with The Kingdom of God?
"For me, it’s all about what we see the biggest threat as. Complete cultural collapse?" How do you define "complete cultural collapse"? I would suggest that we're already in complete cultural collapse (see my first paragraph above) and that, in many ways it was/is inevitable as it is in any empire (see my comment about about Augustine's City of God).
Hi Phil, I think often about how Carter was a dem and an evangelical, and how quickly he was brushed aside for the more masculine Regan. A favorite thing about Carter and Fred Rogers? You better believe it's those friendly cardigans.
I agree with much of your comment! I suppose I would just respond by saying that rather than looking to conflate the two kingdoms, I desire to stem the tide of culture collapse, which you admit is happening / is already happening.
Yes, I admit there's been a cultural collapse but I wonder if we're talking about the same attributes of collapse? I don't think the answer lies in some kind of more aggressive masculine approach (or at least as far as "masculine" is defined by the right). And I wonder if, in light of Augustine, there's any way to stem an empiric/cultural collapse? Because it seems like Augustine is suggesting that City-of-Man empires and the cultures that they foster inevitably collapse which is why we need to have our hearts set in the City of God (Kingdom of God) not the City of Man.
>Russia was aggrieved and wanted attention.
Woman projecting her neurosis onto nation-states lol